[Ritsuko N]

Im on boardwith everything Tim posted above as well as reefmans words of wisdom as there is a lot of truth to it.

Looking at your photos...

The green hairy muchrooms look as though they are gaping thier mouths and look kinda droopy. If thats the case thats generally not a good sign. If they start desoling or form a brownish gray jelly like considtencey then you have Brown Jelly problem going and I would remove the effected polyps and residue and maybe dip them in a coral or iodine dip briefly as per the directions.

The Starburst Polyps look okay and healthy. If they are not opening up something aint right with the lighting or water quality.

Same thing looking at the Zoanthids

Did you say dip strips were your testing kit? If so go get a second opinion from someone who has a test kit with glass test tubes and have them test you water. Dip Strips are notorious for erronious test results that are off target. If this is the kind of test ket your using then that could be why you have a problem and cant identify the source of the problem.

Do be advised that the time you do a PH test can have a profound effect on the ph. For example if you test the PH as soon as the lights come on in the morning your going to get a low PH reading becuase the high CO2 will drop the ph during the night time. Conversely if your always testing just before the photo period on your tank ends your going to get a higher PH reading becuase of the lower CO2 level in the tank. Try to test you water at the same general time like a couple of hours before the photo period ends and you shut the lights off for night time. This will take out a lot of variables nd keep you test results more consistent from day to day week to week. Your ph should not be going above 8.4 if it does you need to start looking for the reason why. At night its not that unusual for Ph to drop to 7.8-7.6. if it goes below this you may have issues. Looking at the results and not having any other amplifiying info you have some wildley fluctuations in ph and some of them if acccurate are way too high ie...close to 9.0!!! You need to consider too that ALK, calcium and Ph are often related and if your having issues with one your likely haveing issues with all three to one degree or another. The Calicum level you posted in on the low side of things. Chemistry of the water can be a bit of a bear to reign in on a new tank which is why its often recommended to not add anything other than CUC until things have settled down and evened out a bit. This is far more an issue with corals than it is fish.

What kinda light do you have on this tank, type and wattage and Kelvin Rating of the bulb in use?

[Fishy]

Well, one of the mushrooms definitely died, fell all apart with the green parts separating from the stuff that looks like shed frog skin. I think maybe they were too close to the light. I asked at the store about that; he said they were used to strong light. The other mushroom had drooped down. After I moved the rock with mushrooms to the floor, the drooping one seems to have improved. The LPS coral is now "pooping" up stuff (throws of death I guess). The star polyps seem to be doing great. The zooanthids won't unfurl their little bristles around the edges but are partially open. Could they be getting too much light? I found a tiny feather duster worm on the zooathid rock! He's cute.

I looked up the brown jelly disease. I don't think it was that. I was actual parts of the coral creating the disintegration of the mushroom and LPS coral. The mushrooms "pooped" out this brown gunk from their "mouths." I don't think there was time for a disease to occur.

I have this test kit:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=14740
Instant Ocean OceanMaster test kit. It's made with dry test ingredients.
I also have dip sticks, the 6 in 1 kind:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4494
I use those because they're fast but I still use the first test kit too.
I also have some older pH test kits from my freshwater tanks I tried too. Each test gives a different result (something I'm used to having trouble with with the freshwater tanks). So, I think I really need the pH meter. I don't know that the pH is fluctuating, its just that each test kit gives a different answer. Part of that is that's hard for me to tell apart subtle differences in color.

I'm aware of the pH fluctuations in freshwater planted tanks and ponds. The saltwater tank is starting to grow some algae so I guess there should now be a daily swing in there too. I tend to test around the same time each week.

I'm starting to get a nice crop of hair algae and a few spots of slimy algae. I think when I do a partial water change tomorrow, I will try to rip some off and send it down the vacuum. I need some living snails!

I definitely don't have too much calcium since I tested for that. I will reduce the amount of buffer I'm using though. I don't have an ana*tical balance here at home, just one that measure 1 g or higher so I can't measure a pinch accurately.

What's "CUC?"

I have two 24 W compact fluorescent lights. It's the 12 gallon nano cube deluxe:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=10677

I understand the benefits of waiting to add more animals from the beginning. The thing is that I could have waited a year before adding my first snails and crabs but those first snails still would have died because I wouldn't have know all the things I know now (must use RO water even with nearly distilled well water, must up the salinity above what the salt mixes say, must add buffer, must temperature acclimate more importantly than water chemistry, and so on). If I had waited longer, I still would have killed my first corals. I asked Mr. Coral about the LPS, "Isn't that harder to keep alive, shouldn't I wait to try one?" "Oh, no; they're easy" came the response. My brother (who never cared before the tank) really wanted that one. I never got to see it open once.

Anyway, I'm doing 30% twice weekly water changes with RO starting water to try to clear out anything bad. Then, after about 3 weeks, I will try snails just one more time and see how the corals are doing at that point (might get a few more).

Well, I had one moment of fun, when I found that little feather duster worm. I guess he's pretty hardy! I guess he'll find enough food in the water? Also, one of my scarlet reef crabs molted and this one didn't die like the zebra who molted. Good sign? I need one!

[Ritsuko N]

[code]I think maybe they were too close to the light. I asked at the store about that; he said they were used to strong light.[quote]

Im not sure that was such a big issue as I have kept them under 14K halides before after acclimatation. But they had plenty of light so I think you can rule that out if your using saltwater specific bulbs. I currently have some simular 'shrooms under about 40 watts of T-5's and they are doing rather well, so surely 48 watts of PC should be just fine.

[TimSchmidt]

actually great sign on the crab!!

[Fishy]

Well, I took some water to work this morning to test the pH with a real (expensive and calibrated) pH meter. It took a long time to stabilize but ended up at 7.92! Yet, the at home tests were saying high 8's and even close to 9! It goes to show you how off the test kits really are (or my ability to read them). If in fact the tank is pH swinging due to the algae, what do I do about that? I can't keep snails alive to eat the algae. I've been adding Red Sea salt mix (2/3) made for RO water (which I'm now using) and 1/3 Reef Crystals (have to use that up) plus a pinch of buffer mix. The Red Sea stuff says if you only add that to RO water, the pH, alkalinity, and calcium come out perfectly. And yet, my tests aren't showing that! Should I just use 100% Red Sea mix (letting the other salt mixes (I also have Instant Ocean) rot)? Am I putting in the wrong amount of buffer? Since I'm not sure what the true pH is, I'm really confused. I'm ordering a pH meter for home today. Then, I can test the pH at various times of the day in real time.

The mushrooms completely fell apart. I washed one down the drain, the other floated away. The LPS is now all fuzzy and falling apart too. The good news is that the zooanthids and star polyps seem fine as do the crabs. That little feather duster worm gave me some hope too.

Today, I have another concern. Until now, the two clown fish have been doing great although restless. Now, today, the smaller black and white Ocellaris clown has two little white things hanging under his chin. If he were freshwater, I might suspect anchor worm (which is what it looks like but smaller). I know treating the tank with antibiotics and/or parasitic medications is not possible (without killing everything else off). Should I do something? Am I just being paranoid? He seems to struggle more than the larger regular clown. The regular clown also will chase him a little. I was told that if you got two little ones at the same time with a size difference that they would work things out with the larger one becoming female. I think there's a rule. The most expensive fish must die first!

[FLOEDOG]

I have never had a problem putting snails in, I do the same thing as you. I float the bag for 15 minutes & drip for 30 minutes. Are you sure you are not letting them in the tank upside down. If they are upside down, they will die (drowned believe it or not). My salt level 1.025 and I have 4 turbo snails, 6 nassarius, and a few others, never a problem. I will make on suggestion though, throw away the dip sticks & but some other tester either api or seachem. Those dip sticks give false reads, I was using them & it kept telling me my pH was 7.8, then i bought the api tester & it gave me a 8.3 read. I had my water checked at the store and it was 8.3.

[TimSchmidt]

One last thing as far as testing your water with your lab equipment. PH will swing based on the O2 and CO2 concentration so I would recommend testing PH and ALK right at the tank and keep testing at the same time relative to lighting (i.e. middle of the light cycle). Not sure on the fish but I would clean out the dead stuff and keep up with smaller water changes more frequently. Smaller more frequent changes are better for the tank as it gradually shifts everything to a more ideal parameter...but honestly can be a bit of a nuisance to change 2 -3 times a week. Has the fish changed it's eating habits (i.e. not eating as much as it normally does)?

[Fishy]

I put the snails foot side down. The crabs knocked them over a few times but I righted them. And no, the crabs did not kill the snails; the snails never came out and moved except that one who came back to life for half a day.

Crusty the clown was still eating as of this morning. I will see how he's doing when I get home. Nemo is definitely dominant though being larger.

[Fishy]

Well, Crusty is dead. I am now a fish murderer too! I've never lost animals like this with freshwater, ever! When I came home, Crusty had white film on his left fin as well as two white things under his chin. I don't know if it was bacteria, fungus, or skin sloughing (indicative of water quality issues). He wanted to eat but Nemo would slam him every time he tried. Of course, the common fish would kill the rare, expensive fish. I'm actually hoping Crusty died from Nemo and not from water quality or medical issues. I was told by Live Aquaria, the fish stores, and my nano reef book that if you get two young Ocellaris clownfish at the same time, they will get along. It's a lie! If only I'd known! Crusty was stuck to the intake this morning. Anyway, Nemo is big and strong. The only concern is one white dot on his right flank. I'm hoping it's nothing. If it spreads, and he dies too, then I should be punished. Whatever I'm doing is killing animals. I've put in 26 animals so far in my tank; only 8 are still alive! I've killed 14 snails, 1 hermit crab (died while molting), 1 clownfish, and 2 corals.

I did a 2.5 gallon water change last night. RO water with 1/3 Reef Crystals, 2/3 Red Sea RO salt mix, a dash of buffer. The pH of the make up water tested off scale, over 9 (an hour of mixing and aeration)! The pH of the tank said 8.6! Yikes! Then, I went on-line, and it seems the common salt mixes always mix up at pH of 9 or even 10 for some! Is that the case for you? What do you do? I decided to do the water change even though the pH was too high. I'm hoping the problem is not solely pH, and that water changes will help.

If things settle down in a month or two, could I try to add another fish to the tank with Nemo or is it a lost cause? Before I found out about the black and white variety, I was going to have one regular false Percula clown and a firefish. If I later get a firefish, will Nemo pulverize him too or leave him alone? [I know they jump; the tank is fully sealed.]

I brought a tank water sample to work again today and got a pH of 7.95! Too low at work, too high at home? Either the pH is fluctuating, or one or more test kits are phooey. I've borrowed the pH test strips here (more accurate and easier to read) to try at home. I also ordered the pH meter and paid an extra $20 to get it here by the weekend. Then, I'll do another water change.

I don't know if I should leave out the buffer since the pH is too high or leave it in since it's fluctuating too much?

[Fishy]

Update: When I got home, that white thing on Nemo seems to be gone; he/she seems healthy. The crabs were having fun. It seems the remaining animals are fine. I brought home some more accurate pH dip strips from work. The result: 7.8 or 7.9! Then, I dipped my 6 in 1 aquarium dip strip. I got 8.9 or higher! I don't know what to believe. The dry test kit I didn't do today but it's been doing about 8.6. The pH meter I'm getting may not be accurate either!

[Ritsuko N]

I was looking at you web page you linked to this thread. A couple of things hit me like a bolt of lightening.

When did you start this tank?

When did you start the tank cycling in earnest..ie when did the rock get in it, the live sand, the water and all that and start seeing elevated levels of Ammonia?

When did the Ammonia start going down and the Nitrites start to become elevated?

When did the Ammonia levels start getting below at least 0.10 ?

When did the Nitrites max out and at what level?

When did the Nitrites start dropping and the Nitrates start to become elevated?

At what level and day was it when the Nitrates maxed out and stopped getting higher?

How many and how much in the way of water changes did you do before the Nitrates dropped down to 10 ppm or less?

You you did the water changes to lower the Nitrates after they were no longer increasing, did the Ammonia or Nitrites go up any, and if so how much?

What day did you add the fish?

[Fishy]

So many questions! Here are the answers:
I first put water and live sand in the tank on 4/26/08. I put in 11.5 pounds of live rock on 4/27/08. The store said it was pre-cured but I didn't add any animals at first just in case. I tested the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate weekly. I never read anything but zero. This indicates to me that the live rock was pre-cured and the tank was ready to go. So, I intended to wait a month but waited just 2 weeks to get the first snails and hermit crabs. As I've said, the hermit crabs did great, and the snails died instantly. As of today, the tank still has no ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate.

I've been changing 2.5 gallons weekly (now twice a week). The tank is supposed to be 12 gallons but I measured it in the 8 to 9 gallon range so my water changes are thus about 30% weekly from the beginning.

The 2 fish, 4 corals, and 7 new snails (who died instantly except for one that came back to life for one day and then died) were added on 5/21/08.

Let me repeat: My tank has ZERO ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate and always has. I've tested it with dry tests and also with the dip sticks (more often since they're fast). I'm a chemist. I may not be sure about the pH but I know there is no ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate at a level to have harmed the animals.

I am hoping that Crusty died from being bulled by Nemo. I am hoping that the 14 snails and 2 corals died from improper temperature acclimation since the water cooled during the long drip acclimation. I am going to wait at least 3 weeks to try again.

Update later: When I got home, everyone who is left was doing fine. I figured out that the "slime" algae was in fact sheets of dead diatoms. Also, among the zooanthids was what I think is a macroalgae growing. It's fan shaped and looks like lettuce. Also, all over the live rock now are these little green plants. They're like miniature freshwater valisneria. Are those macroalgae too or just another form of microalgae?

[Fishy]

I guess you're all too busy with your nano reefs to give me some more advice. I certainly understand how time consuming it is!

Anyway, I got the pH meter today, calibrated it with solutions I stole from work. The pH in my nano reef reads 8.41. That's neither the 7.95 the work pH meter said nor the 9.0 that the test strips say. It's a tad high but useable! I'll take it! Strangely, the pH in my 50 gallon freshwater tank was 7.65! It's never been that high. It's normally under 7.5 by the tests I've done in the past. I got some stick on in-tank pH meter things but once I got them, it says only for freshwater! Drat!

As I type this, the RO system is working overtime again!

[Ritsuko N]

I dont think its a case of being too busy as much as it is that you got a tough situation to deal with and ts very difficult to solve some pronblems with out being right there to actually see the tank and test the water personally. You have a new and unstable tank or you have test kits that are giving questionable results making any suggestions little more than a chance shot in the dark.

Its good to see the Ph up. 8.4 is very workable as long as it doesnt get any higher. 7.9-8.0 on your refractometer at work was okay although a tad on the low side.

Without a pic, IDing your mystery algae is impossible as much as I would like to. A description can only take you so far at times.

[Fishy]

I just make things too hard for you all and myself! I got my new pH meter and calibrated it with pH 7 and pH 4 buffers ("borrowed" from work).

Here are the pH readings from today:
The pH of the tank was 8.4 by dry marine test kit, 8.8 by dip stick, and 8.13 by pH meter. The pH of the make up water (I changed out another 2.5 gallons) was 8.2 by dry marine test kit, 8.4 by dip stick, and 8.02 by pH meter! The pH was a bit low in the make up water so I added more buffer; it re-tested at a pH of 8.11. A pH of 8.2 is ideal, right? I think a pH of 8.1 sounds pretty good though for now! None of various pH tests agree with each other; I'll trust the pH meter.

As for the mystery green thing, this photo has it at the upper left of the zooathid colony. It's just one green leaf:
http://www.fishpondinfo.com/photos/other/corals/zooanthids.jpg

Anyway, my surviving animals are doing well - 1 fish, 4 crabs, 2 corals, and that little feather duster. Do I need to feed him specifically? He's tiny. I have some "Coral Frenzy" which I've pipetted (minute amount) over the corals once so far (told to do weekly). I would squirt the feather duster worm some but he closes up if there's any disturbance (like big monster me in the tank).